Digging in to the AT4 speakers and cabs

[carlaz]

Has anyone really dug in to the AT4 speakers and cabs? I've been a bit distracted with other stuff since AT4 came out, and have only just started really messing with the speaker-swapping feature -- and it seems tremendously cool though also like it would benefit from significant written (manual) or video-tutorial guidance!

There a user-speculated list of possible AT4 name vs. real-world speaker models floating around; here's one copy: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/11453628-post339.html. It would be interesting to know what the logic behind some of the apparent variants (e.g., the two Brit Anniversary models, or the three Brit Vn models). This post from Brian gives some clues, though one rapidly discovers that the 2 Slash cabs use different speaker models, as do the Orange PPC212 and PPC412.

Also, that different cabs have different constructions now seems more obvious than ever, even when using the same speakers. For example, the Closed 25 C, and the Closed Vintage 1 & 2 all use Brit Green speakers, but all sound quite different. I recall that the Closed Vintage 1 is the angled Marshall 4x12 ('70s?) cab, and the Closed Vintage 2 is the complementary straight-front, but is the Closed 25 C then an earlier ('60s?) model of Marshall cab (straight or angled)?

All the "stock" 4x12 cab models come with the same 4 "matching" speakers, of course, but though it's reasonable obvious that it makes a difference to the tone putting the cab mics in front of 2 different speakers, I haven't quite figured out to what extant any non-mic'd speakers are affecting the tone. (For example, I can load a 4x12 cab with 4 different speakers, but only mic 2 of those, and I haven't figured out whether and/or how much it matters what the speakers that aren't mic'd are.)

Has anyone else been playing with this stuff? There are a lot of possible combinations and tonal variations!

[drchek]

All the "stock" 4x12 cab models come with the same 4 "matching" speakers, of course, but though it's reasonable obvious that it makes a difference to the tone putting the cab mics in front of 2 different speakers, I haven't quite figured out to what extant any non-mic'd speakers are affecting the tone. (For example, I can load a 4x12 cab with 4 different speakers, but only mic 2 of those, and I haven't figured out whether and/or how much it matters what the speakers that aren't mic'd are.)

This particularly intrigues me. I'd like to know real answer, but in my testing I could have sworn that swapping out an unmic'd speaker did make a slight change to the sound.

[joflo]

It DOES affect the sound, and not only slighty. Never thought of one speaker changing makes such a difference, but who does this in the "real world"?

[carlaz]

I know of plenty of people who have mixed, say, 2 different speaker types in a 4x12 -- though most have thought about the tone from a "player standing in front of the rig" standpoint. I have no experience or knowledge of mic'ing up cabs with mixed speakers. Usually, the approach seems to be "mic the best-sounding speaker in the cab", though this seems to assume that all speakers are the same; when you've got deliberate mixes of speakers, I would guess other approaches are needed! Also, I would assume that really directional, proximity-affect mics (like SM57s) are more sensitive to the sound produced by a particular speaker when things are close-mic'd, but when you've got an omnidirectional condenser backed off a ways, you are presumably picking up more of a range of speakers ... and then there is the issue of the room mics ....

[n2mpujack]

How the sound is affected when changing from 4 identical speakers to 4 different ones is going to depend on how the cabinet is mic'd and the microphone used and whatever pattern is used on the mic, at least that's how it is in the real world. As to whether it applies inside AT4 depends on how much of a mic's intrinsic attributes were modeled. For instance with the ribbon mics- were they modeled with the figure of 8 pattern a real ribbon has? And the AKGC414 - what pattern was that modeled with (the real mic has multiple patterns from cardioid to omni to figure 8 and many other patterns). Here's an example for a figure 8 mic - place it between two speakers and because these mics pick up pretty much equally from both sides of the mic you'll get a combined sound of the two speakers.

Another way the sound is affected is how the room mics are set. They'll catch the combined sound of all 4 speakers with some bias depending on how the mic is set relative to the cabinet, not to mention whether the cabinet is a straight or sloped one.

Digging into the cab brings up something - has anyone done much with the depth of the cabinet and what is the exact control that does the deed? This, along with other stuff written about here, really brings up the fact that IK needs to do a full manual for AT4.

[carlaz]

I had messed around with cab sizes in AT3, wondering if I could make a 4x12 sound like a 4x15 by making it bigger ... though eventually I realized I was not entirely sure what a 4x15 would sound like anyway!

[n2mpujack]

I had messed around with cab sizes in AT3, wondering if I could make a 4x12 sound like a 4x15 by making it bigger ... though eventually I realized I was not entirely sure what a 4x15 would sound like anyway!

Maybe ask Lemmy?
I thought cab size (depth?) changes was a newbie for AT4?

[carlaz]

I had messed around with cab sizes in AT3, wondering if I could make a 4x12 sound like a 4x15 by making it bigger ... though eventually I realized I was not entirely sure what a 4x15 would sound like anyway!

Maybe ask Lemmy?
I thought cab size (depth?) changes was a newbie for AT4?

If you check the center-top of the cab models in AT3, there's a little "SIZE" knob (easily missed!) that scales from 75% to 125%. I think it's basically the same thing as the slider below the righthand-sidebar cab-model image in AT4. Still, according to the AT3 manual, this control allows you "to expand or reduce the size of the cabinet" (emphasis added). Given that the AT3 cabs/speakers were essentially integrated -- but the AT4 cabs speakers are -- seemingly? -- not, it's possible the control "stretched" speakers as well as cabs together in AT3 but ... not in AT4? You are right that we need a manual!

Heh, if I asked Lemmy how a 4x15 sounded, he'd probably just say something like "[Very bad word] great!" or "[Very bad word] loud!". Or both! I'm going to have to wait until IK eventually sees the light and adds a Superbass model with matching 4x15 and 4x12 bass cabs to the roster!

[stateofepicicity]

The speaker swapping feature really is extraordinary. The tonal possibilities, which already were insane in Amplitube 3, are completely on a new level with Amplitube 4. I have been thinking that one furtherance of the speaker swapping capability would be for the speaker module to function more like the cab module, in this way:

If a "Match" button was added to the speaker module, for it to function the way it does now, i.e., to switch speakers when cabinets are switched, but, when the "Match" button is unpressed, for the speakers to stay the same while the cabs change. This would be a very efficient and intuitive way to audition, say, four ElectroVoice speakers in different 4 x 12 cabs without having to reload them to each cab as you go along!

With regard to using different combos of speakers in your cabs, in the 90s I bought an ancient, completely empty Sunn 4 x 12. For a while I used four Carvin 100W speakers, which sounded great, but I ended up replacing only the top two with Greenbacks. The combination of earthshaking power from the Carvins on the bottom and dirty filthy nastiness from the Greenbacks on top was really something; it completely balanced the cab and made it the greatest thing ever (maybe next to the insane Matchless I tried with a Triaxis into a Boogie power amp, but that's another, completely unaffordable story, haha). In Amplitube, I really like the fact that you can have a different speaker in each part of a 4 x 12, and again, I'm completely amazed that technology has been pioneered to simulate that. I can hear a huge difference between switching just one speaker and loading all four spaces with the same speaker. Each individual Amplitube speaker swap alters the character; it's just a crazy new level of subtle tonal alteration.

Interestingly, I was just reading this tonight:

http://www.soldano.com/amp-help/guitar- ... -swapping/

in which Mike Soldano recommends speaker swapping over tube swapping for his amps. Of course, the concerns he illustrates don't translate to amp sims, but I think the idea is still interesting. Especially since Amplitube no longer allows for new models to swap output tubes, this seems to apply even more appropriately. Of course, the dang mics you choose (and, of course, their position, angle, and relatively levels in the guitar mix) change you tone just as much as the cab and speakers. So many elements; it's tonal heaven.

[smata65]

The speaker swapping feature really is extraordinary. The tonal possibilities, which already were insane in Amplitube 3, are completely on a new level with Amplitube 4. I have been thinking that one furtherance of the speaker swapping capability would be for the speaker module to function more like the cab module, in this way:

If a "Match" button was added to the speaker module, for it to function the way it does now, i.e., to switch speakers when cabinets are switched, but, when the "Match" button is unpressed, for the speakers to stay the same while the cabs change. This would be a very efficient and intuitive way to audition, say, four ElectroVoice speakers in different 4 x 12 cabs without having to reload them to each cab as you go along!

With regard to using different combos of speakers in your cabs, in the 90s I bought an ancient, completely empty Sunn 4 x 12. For a while I used four Carvin 100W speakers, which sounded great, but I ended up replacing only the top two with Greenbacks. The combination of earthshaking power from the Carvins on the bottom and dirty filthy nastiness from the Greenbacks on top was really something; it completely balanced the cab and made it the greatest thing ever (maybe next to the insane Matchless I tried with a Triaxis into a Boogie power amp, but that's another, completely unaffordable story, haha). In Amplitube, I really like the fact that you can have a different speaker in each part of a 4 x 12, and again, I'm completely amazed that technology has been pioneered to simulate that. I can hear a huge difference between switching just one speaker and loading all four spaces with the same speaker. Each individual Amplitube speaker swap alters the character; it's just a crazy new level of subtle tonal alteration.

Interestingly, I was just reading this tonight:

http://www.soldano.com/amp-help/guitar- ... -swapping/

in which Mike Soldano recommends speaker swapping over tube swapping for his amps. Of course, the concerns he illustrates don't translate to amp sims, but I think the idea is still interesting. Especially since Amplitube no longer allows for new models to swap output tubes, this seems to apply even more appropriately. Of course, the dang mics you choose (and, of course, their position, angle, and relatively levels in the guitar mix) change you tone just as much as the cab and speakers. So many elements; it's tonal heaven.

I know this has not been the case with AT3, Orange, Slash, or Hendrix Anniversary, but in the recent MESA/Boogie collection, You can swap the tubes on the rectifiers, and change from triode to pentode on the Mark IV. Of Course With AT4 they sound even better, and have more options to change the tone

[stateofepicicity]

Totally, I forgot about that!

[carlaz]

If a "Match" button was added to the speaker module, for it to function the way it does now, i.e., to switch speakers when cabinets are switched, but, when the "Match" button is unpressed, for the speakers to stay the same while the cabs change. This would be a very efficient and intuitive way to audition, say, four ElectroVoice speakers in different 4 x 12 cabs without having to reload them to each cab as you go along!

Yes, some way of more easily loading -- and in fact saving/loading -- particular combinations of speakers would be welcome.

[n2mpujack]

If a "Match" button was added to the speaker module, for it to function the way it does now, i.e., to switch speakers when cabinets are switched, but, when the "Match" button is unpressed, for the speakers to stay the same while the cabs change. This would be a very efficient and intuitive way to audition, say, four ElectroVoice speakers in different 4 x 12 cabs without having to reload them to each cab as you go along!

Yes, some way of more easily loading -- and in fact saving/loading -- particular combinations of speakers would be welcome.

You're talking about saving the 'modified' cab/speaker combo as a separate thing from the patch it's in right? That would be the next logical step for AT4.

[carlaz]

Yes. For example, you can save particular settings on particular pieces of gear (stomps/amps/racks), and load them as you wish. (My saved gear settings from AT3 don't seem to have survived the transition to AT4, but I can load the legacy presets that contain them and re-save them in AT4.) It seems like you can actually save complete pedalboard setups in AT4 now -- which is great -- but I haven't had a chance to do much of that yet. You can also save model settings with cabs, though this seems to mean that you can save a particular cab/"set of speakers" combination, and not that you can save a particular speaker combination and then load those speakers into different cabs.

But the ability to save speaker sets independent of cabs seems a logical extension of those ideas. You either have some speakers you like, and want to try them in different cabs (and then maybe fine-tune the speaker selection), or you have particular cabs you like and want to try different combinations of speakers in them.

Having to essentially "start over" when you change cabs (until one eventually builds up a little library of saved cab/"set of speakers" combinations, which I haven't had time to do yet), though only a quite mild irritation , is nevertheless one that would be easily addressed by the ability to save speaker combinations independent of the cabs themselves.

[n2mpujack]

Yes. For example, you can save particular settings on particular pieces of gear (stomps/amps/racks), and load them as you wish. (My saved gear settings from AT3 don't seem to have survived the transition to AT4, but I can load the legacy presets that contain them and re-save them in AT4.) It seems like you can actually save complete pedalboard setups in AT4 now -- which is great -- but I haven't had a chance to do much of that yet. You can also save model settings with cabs, though this seems to mean that you can save a particular cab/"set of speakers" combination, and not that you can save a particular speaker combination and then load those speakers into different cabs.

But the ability to save speaker sets independent of cabs seems a logical extension of those ideas. You either have some speakers you like, and want to try them in different cabs (and then maybe fine-tune the speaker selection), or you have particular cabs you like and want to try different combinations of speakers in them.

Having to essentially "start over" when you change cabs (until one eventually builds up a little library of saved cab/"set of speakers" combinations, which I haven't had time to do yet), though only a quite mild irritation , is nevertheless one that would be easily addressed by the ability to save speaker combinations independent of the cabs themselves.

Okay - I see where you're going with this.

If you could explain how to do a couple of things you mention I'd be greatful (and probably would a few others). You mention being able to save pedalboard setups. Is this independent of the patch used and if so - how do you do it? And the other is you mention saving model settings with cabs - do you mean being able to save a customized cabinet and speaker set, again separate from the patch? And if so - how do you do that? There must be a lot of these little unexplained easter eggs in AT4