20 drawbars on B-3X emulator versus 38 on B-3 organ and why?

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20 drawbars on B-3X emulator versus 38 on B-3 organ and why?

Postby danwat1234 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:00 pm

An actual B-3 organ has 38 drawbars.
Is it true there is no way to enable a layout that gives control of all 38 drawbars in the software? I only see 20 in the layout. If not, what is the reasoning because it is supposed to emulate the genuine organ in every way.
I am probably missing something obvious. I am a newbie here. 38 drawbars please! no shortcomings.
B-3X 20 drawbars; https://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/h ... lgr@2x.jpg
B-3 38 drawbars; https://cdn-0.enacademic.com/pictures/e ... eup%29.png
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Re: 20 drawbars on B-3X emulator versus 38 on B-3 organ and

Postby reuelt » Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:53 pm

repost to WISH LIST forum for better response
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=22351
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Re: 20 drawbars on B-3X emulator versus 38 on B-3 organ and

Postby danwat1234 » Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:22 am

So you agree
reuelt wrote:repost to WISH LIST forum for better response
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=22351" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


So i am correct in that there are only 20 drawbars in the emulator not the full 38? Thank you, i will add to wishlist.
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Re: 20 drawbars on B-3X emulator versus 38 on B-3 organ and

Postby Ryan_IK » Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:41 pm

This is not necessarily an issue, nor should it limit the tonal options available. In short, this is because the extra draw-bars were added due to physical limitations. These were used as 'presets' and triggered with the Inverted keys A# and B. Since in the software, each inverted key has a preset that can be edited, there is no need for these additional draw-bars.

To quote the user manual:

“Each of the three manuals has its own set of drawbars that is displayed at the top of the window. The drawbars always show the current state of the tone generator mix. So the drawbar settings you see always represents the drawbar sound you hear. Since Hammond B-3X is a software instrument, we can take advantage of the dynamic software interface to always show the current position of the drawbars.
The advantages of a software instrument become apparent when you select a drawbar settings key using the 12 inverted keys at the left of each keyboard. Here is some historical information so you can understand what was done originally, and what has evolved in Hammond B-3X:
On the hardware Hammond organs, the C# through A keys select a fixed drawbar setting that is independent of that actual physical drawbars. The A# note selects the first set of drawbars at the left, and the B note selects the second set of drawbars to the right. The C note cancels the drawbar selection altogether and essentially mutes the organ.
Hammond B-3X deviates from this classic scheme because we do not have the same limitations as analog hardware. Hammond B-3X still has drawbar settings on the inverted keys, but here we take advantage of the software platform and dynamically move the drawbars to reflect each drawbar preset selected. This would be impractical on a hardware Hammond organ since this could only be accomplished with mechanically motorized sliders. This also allows Hammond B-3X to use all 12 inverted keys of each manual for drawbar settings instead of just 9 of them on the original hardware instruments. ”
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Re: 20 drawbars on B-3X emulator versus 38 on B-3 organ and

Postby Peter_IK » Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:59 pm

It is also almost exactly how Hammond themselves implemented drawbars (nine per manual, typically) in any more "modern" takes on the B3.
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Re: 20 drawbars on B-3X emulator versus 38 on B-3 organ and

Postby reuelt » Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:00 am

Current Hammond products:-
B3 MkII 38 drawbars
XK5 38 drawbars
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Re: 20 drawbars on B-3X emulator versus 38 on B-3 organ and

Postby garfy » Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:18 pm

I'm interested @reuelt and @danwat1234. As the function of the extra drawbars is available, apart from a visual thing what difference would having them shown on the GUI? Do you have a hardware controller that can address these extras?
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Re: 20 drawbars on B-3X emulator versus 38 on B-3 organ and

Postby reuelt » Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:46 pm

garfy wrote:I'm interested @reuelt and @danwat1234. As the function of the extra drawbars is available, apart from a visual thing what difference would having them shown on the GUI? Do you have a hardware controller that can address these extras?


FYI, I have two M-AUDIO Oxygen 61. with both the 9 sliders assigned to the upper and lower manual drawbars. The sliders have 10 banks to switch.
Both sets of sliders have proper (colored) Hammond Drawbar Knobs (Ordered from USA) fitted.
My program changed are set to the 9 buttons which also has 10 banks, so I can switch presets.
The m-audio Oxygen also has 8 variable controls on the right which can serve as the controller's for "B" set of drawbars if A# set is assigned to the sliders or vice versa,
Almost all the toggle switches, are NOW already controlled via MIDI from those two MIDI controllers.
I also have an ICON ICONTROLS to control the pedals drawbars and other controls.

The 2 sets of Drawbars are just switched by A# and B inverted keys so there is no extra sound tone wheel generators required to implement them. Perhaps the A# and B buttons if MIDI controllable would be a bonus.
As is, I already can use inverted keys because M-audio Oxygen have transpose up-down functions.
Mode-Wheel is swiching the "leslie"speed. The Pitch bend wheels (internal spring taken off) is assigned to control the Vibrator/Chorus mode.
This is NOT an advertisement for M-audio Oxygen as exact clones of this keyboard are available at 1/3 price under a few (made in China) brands.

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Re: 20 drawbars on B-3X emulator versus 38 on B-3 organ and

Postby garfy » Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:49 am

It's great having hardware control, sounds like you've got a good system in place.

reuelt wrote:Perhaps the A# and B buttons if MIDI controllable would be a bonus.


Unless I'm misunderstanding you, they already are MIDI controllable, they work the same way as key switches in orchestral packages. In B-3X you can preset drawbar configurations into any of the inverted keys and switch to them at any time, the bonus being you don't have to crack the case to get at the preset tone wheels. The only difference to a real Hammond is that you use the same set of virtual drawbars to configure any of the inv keys.
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Re: 20 drawbars on B-3X emulator versus 38 on B-3 organ and

Postby reuelt » Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:36 pm

garfy wrote:It's great having hardware control, sounds like you've got a good system in place.

reuelt wrote:Perhaps the A# and B buttons if MIDI controllable would be a bonus.


Unless I'm misunderstanding you, they already are MIDI controllable, they work the same way as key switches in orchestral packages. In B-3X you can preset drawbar configurations into any of the inverted keys and switch to them at any time, the bonus being you don't have to crack the case to get at the preset tone wheels. The only difference to a real Hammond is that you use the same set of virtual drawbars to configure any of the inv keys.


As I said, I can already use the inverted keys so A# and B keys are already there. But switching is not as easy as having 4 CC MIDI buttons just for A#, B (upper manual & lower manual).
Why?
61 key manuals cannot access the inverted keys unless I transpose down one octave press one of the inverted keys then transpose back to normal to play (4 or more key presses). If the A# and B for both the upper and lower manual can ALSO be assigned to CC numbers, 1 push will already select the drawbar I want for manual manipulation while playing.
I am not complaining because I can always buy new keyboards with drum pads that can be assigned to A#1 and B1 notes. Mine are old models without drum pads so no buttons can be assigned to notes on.

I did not mention Expression & wah wah pedal. I soldered 2 headphone jacks to switch the pitch bend (spring removed) and mode wheel of the upper keyboard. Yamaha FC7 Volume pedals then work perfectly when plugged in. When unplugged, I can have pitch bend and mode wheel back or assign to other controls for hand controls. One Yamaha FC7 is now the expression pedal with CC#11, the other assigned to CC#55 for wah-wah.
M-audio Axiom has an expression pedal socket but is more expensive compared with Oxygen. Cheaper to solder headphone sockets than paying $300 more just to ONE an expression pedal socket.

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Last edited by reuelt on Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 20 drawbars on B-3X emulator versus 38 on B-3 organ and

Postby garfy » Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:44 pm

reuelt wrote:But switching is not as easy as having 4 CC MIDI buttons just for A#, B (upper manual & lower manual).
Why?
61 key manuals cannot access the inverted keys unless I transpose down one octave press one of the inverted keys then transpose back to normal to play (4 key presses). If the A# and B for both the upper and lower manual can ALSO be assigned to CC numbers, 1 push will already select the drawbar I want for manual manipulation while playing.
I am not complaining because I can always buy new keyboards with drum pads that can be assigned to A#1 and B1 notes. Mine are old models without drum pads so no buttons can be assigned to notes on.


Ok, so that's more a problem of running out of controls for MIDI messages. You probably don't need to go so far as new whole keyboards - something like the small Novation Launch Control has 8 pads that can output note information which could be programmed to A# and B on the required MIDI channels and everything will be fine.

I'm still at a loss as to why the need for the extra 18 drawbars on the GUI. Is it just a visual thing?
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Re: 20 drawbars on B-3X emulator versus 38 on B-3 organ and

Postby reuelt » Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:43 pm

garfy wrote:I'm still at a loss as to why the need for the extra 18 drawbars on the GUI. Is it just a visual thing?


The function of the two sets of drawbars per manual on a real B3 is to quickly switch between drawbars used for manual change of sound while playing. It is NOT to select a preset otherwise one would use C#, D. D#, E. F, F#, G, G#, A presets for that.
It is also used to switch between drawbars set that does not support percussion and the set that does.
In the real B3, selecting A# or B means read/use the physical drawbars.
A virtual organ like the B-3X does not read the drawbars until the MIDI based sliders are moved. So GUI showing two sets of drawbars per manual is essential. In use, the MIDI sliders or MIDI Drawbars set can be pulled to 88 8888 888 when inactive and only some drawbars that need change when that set is active while referring to the GUI are moved instead of having to move all 9 one at a time which would be impossible during playing.

Ask why Hammond stopped the production of XK3 which also powers the "Mini B3" both with only 20 drawbars per manual - few organists would buy them.
So Hammond now only produce XK5 and B3 Mk2 both with 38 drawbars.
Their SK series are drawbar + other sound keyboards. SK series are NOT modern B3!!!

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Re: 20 drawbars on B-3X emulator versus 38 on B-3 organ and

Postby Peter_IK » Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:54 pm

Hammond themselves approved and had detailed input on every aspect of Hammond B-3X, and on the IK side Erik Norlander (who brought the Alesis Andromeda A6 to the world when with Alesis and is also a touring and recording keyboardist with at least one meticulously maintained Hammond B3 that he's used countless times) made sure this was the best representation of a Hammond B3 available on your Mac or Windows PC or iPad.

That said, if you need those physical drawbars, you mention XK-5 which is great news since there is full support of it (and other great official Hammond controllers) in Hammond B-3X for a long while now so you can snap one up and go for it! Clearly explained in this news https://www.ikmultimedia.com/news/?id=Hammond111

I mean honestly if Erik Norlander, Jim Alfredson, Gary Corbett, and many other Hammond artists use it (also Jordan Rudess used the iPad version to play an actual gig with Deep Purple...without any other Hammond B3s, hardware or virtual, needed) it does seem to legitimately cover the bases for expert-level B3 players.

Edited to fix the XK-5 reference (which should have been obvious by context and if you followed the link to read the news) add the worldwide news link to the Hammond official controller support. Also, please note that the options are still there, clicking A# and B will still allow the same function as the B3. As mentioned, though, things in the digital world are a little bit different. Mainly because you don't have the same hardware limitations requiring motorized faders or anything crazy like you would with a real B3. Now all inverted keys can be customized instead of just A# and B.

Also to add a warning: If people are not going to read the information/posts/links and are going to use that to argue incorrect semantics or obvious typos, this thread will not last.
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Re: 20 drawbars on B-3X emulator versus 38 on B-3 organ and

Postby reuelt » Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:39 am

garfy wrote:Ok, so that's more a problem of running out of controls for MIDI messages. You probably don't need to go so far as new whole keyboards - something like the small Novation Launch Control has 8 pads that can output note information which could be programmed to A# and B on the required MIDI channels and everything will be fine.


Thanks for your suggestion.
I have just worked around the issue by creating 11 preset files and assigning 11 PC change buttons to those files.

Temporarily in bank 1
1-7 AN TNP-1 (A#).b3xp
1-8 AN TNP-1 (B).b3xp

In bank 2 (9 buttons)
2-0 AN TNP-1 (C#).b3xp
2-1 AN TNP-1 (D).b3xp
2-2 AN TNP-1 (D#).b3xp
2-3 AN TNP-1 (E).b3xp
2-4 AN TNP-1 (F).b3xp
2-5 AN TNP-1 (F#).b3xp
2-6 AN TNP-1 (G).b3xp
2-7 AN TNP-1 (D).b3xp

1-7 AN TNP-1 (A#).b3xp & 1-8 AN TNP-1 (B).b3xp will be assigned PC#126 and PC#127 based on Hammond XK5 MIDI implementation specs. - when I reprogram the rewind and fast forward buttons of my top manual to do so.

Just for your info..
AN/TNP-1 is a 1945- ARMY version of Hammond Organ similar to the B3.

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