MODO Bass keeps going out of tune??

Discussions about MODO DRUM physically modeled drums and MODO BASS - the first physically modeled electric bass virtual instrument

MODO Bass keeps going out of tune??

Postby boogerfingerz » Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:19 am

Whenever I use vibrato or pitch bends it seems to mess up MODO Bass' tuning. I've made sure to always reset the CC back to 0 after using the vibrato or bends, but it still goes out of tune. If I set the DAW to repeat a section with vibrato/bends it seems that it will only be in tune about once every four or five times. I always reset the CC messages back to 0 after using them, but it still goes out of tune. How can I fix this?
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Re: MODO Bass keeps going out of tune??

Postby rMidi » Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:09 pm

You are not crazy as this has been an issue for a very long time. It is extremely annoying.
I have seen issues with MODO Bass for the last three versions when it comes to:
- CC events (Vibrato, Pitch bends).
- Pitch Wheel Events.
- 'Legato Slides'.

I am a programmer and am very familiar with Audio and MIDI programming. In the past when this issue has been reported forum users have said they suspected that the user was not 're-setting' the CC's to 'zero'.

I am not a keyboard player and therefore simply poke MIDI events into a MIDI editor. I have always utilized the 'Legato Slide' (which seems to be a different way to initiate a Pitch Wheel effect for a slide) and have always seen the 'out of tune' issue. Recently I have attempted to implement trills via Pitch Wheel MIDI messages. The same issue is occurring there. A layman may say (from empirical observation) the MODO Bass is not processing all of the Pitch Wheel events. I do not believe that this is the case as if it where IkMultiMedia would have fixed it a long time ago.

I am unsure if there has ever been an official support ticket opened for this issue.

Some good news perhaps:
I am able to reproduce the issue. Later today I am going to open a support ticket. I will include:
- A document covering the issue and how to reproduce it.
- Operating system, hardware, software, ...
- A video with audio of the issue occurring.
- Steps to reproduce the issue.

When I get a response from IkMultiMedia, I will start a thread titled: 'MODO Bass keeps going out of tune. IkMultiMedia response' in order to keep people up to date.

Later today I will create another thread titled: 'MODO Bass Pitch Wheel MIDI Events Issue'. I will outline what I have done to cause this issue to happen. Perhaps others who are having this problem can re-create what I am doing within their DAW's and see if they get the same results. If they get the same results, we can rule out the possibility of the DAW being at fault. I utilize Reaper.

In the meantime, it may be advantages to keep this thread clean. Perhaps we should utilize this thread for others who are seeing this issue to post their operating system, CPU, RAM, DAW and version of DAW. Perhaps we will find that there is something in common with persons seeing this issue.

You are not crazy. This is a real issue.

Cheers.
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Re: MODO Bass keeps going out of tune??

Postby rMidi » Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:10 pm

Yes, I see this issue.

Operating System: Windows 10 Pro 21H1 19043.1348
CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-7700K CPU @ 4.20GHz 4.20 GHz
RAM: 32.0 GB
Drives: SSD’s
Audio: ASIO / Thunderbolt
DAW: Reaper 6.4.2
MODO Bass: 1.5.2 (20G10)
Bass Model: Rickenbacker. This is the only model I ever use.
CPU Usage When Issue Occurs: 33%
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Re: MODO Bass keeps going out of tune??

Postby Peter_IK » Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:48 pm

Any issues like this have been resolve by support and with various fixes, none of which required an update to the program itself.

Please open a ticket if you have not done so already or reply to your existing ticket to get a resolution. Thank you.
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Re: MODO Bass keeps going out of tune??

Postby rMidi » Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:45 pm

Thanks Peter. I did state that I would be opening a ticket.

Any issues like this have been resolve by support and with various fixes, none of which required an update to the program itself.


Ani idea of what the 'various fixes' actually are?
Is there a knowledge base somewhere that may cover some of these 'fixes'?

Thanks.
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Re: MODO Bass keeps going out of tune??

Postby Peter_IK » Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:51 pm

rMidi wrote:Thanks Peter. I did state that I would be opening a ticket.

Any issues like this have been resolve by support and with various fixes, none of which required an update to the program itself.


Ani idea of what the 'various fixes' actually are?
Is there a knowledge base somewhere that may cover some of these 'fixes'?

Thanks.

I am not in tech support so no I do not. When you seek IK Support via http://www.ikmultimedia.com/contact-support there is a FAQ you search first, if you don't find a resolution there you are presented with a button/link to open a support ticket. Through that ticketing system, they would be the people to contact about getting issues resolved that are not resolved via the FAQ. Also, no need to use scare quotes. Let's keep conversations civil, even if frustrated etc about issues one is having with a product. Thanks!
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Re: MODO Bass keeps going out of tune??

Postby boogerfingerz » Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:16 am

rMidi wrote:I am able to reproduce the issue. Later today I am going to open a support ticket. I will include:
- A document covering the issue and how to reproduce it.
- Operating system, hardware, software, ...
- A video with audio of the issue occurring.
- Steps to reproduce the issue.

When I get a response from IkMultiMedia, I will start a thread titled: 'MODO Bass keeps going out of tune. IkMultiMedia response' in order to keep people up to date.

Thanks! I opened a ticket a few days ago also. Haven't heard back yet from IK. I'll keep you posted about what they say.
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Re: MODO Bass keeps going out of tune??

Postby rMidi » Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:00 pm

I have submitted a tech support request.
I am perfectly aware that I will not hear from tech support for a few days here.

This may help some individuals in the short term. Being a programmer, I can only explain this in somewhat technical
terms, still it may help someone.
-- Linear MIDI events BAD!
-- 'Square' MIDI Events better (but not perfect).
-- Definition: cents. 1 semi tone contains 100 cents.

In my analysis of the problem as I have found in my environment it looks like the issue may arise from the amount of MIDI events being sent to MODO Bass and the speed in which they are sent. I am not saying that MODO Bass is not receiving the events (which it is) but seems to have issues when it processes the events. I believe this is true for pitch wheel, 'bends' and Legato for sure. I did not take the time to look at other CC type events.

My example I will send to tech support is the implementation of a trill using the Pitch Wheel MIDI event. Basically, I am dumping the note by 1 semi tone (100 cents, I.e., from B to a B flat), back up a semi tone (from B flat to B), ... repeated 4 times.
- MODO Bass slide range set to 1
- Pitch Wheel value for B (no change) is 8192 (+0)
- Pitch Wheel value for B Flat is 3120 (-5072). Actually, the semi tone drop is really -4095 but the trill sounds better a 3120.

LINEAR:
When I do this with a linear curve (meaning values are filled in between 8192 and 3120 with declining values, this is how a hardware pitch wheel works)
~ 33% of the time MODO bass does not process all of the events. In addition, it very often leaves the sustaining note (the B as I have returned to 8192 (+0)) flat Sometimes it is 'stuck' on the B flat, other times it sounds a few 10's of cents flat.

When MODO Bass seems to process all of the MIDI events ~33% of the time sustaining B note seems to be a few 10's of cents sharp (to my ear anyways).

Note that when I am trilling up (a pitch bend) the same condition exits save for the fact that we are often left sharp rather than flat.

Here is the MIDI stream being sent to MODO Bass for a trill 'down':
0: 90 2F 70 [Note On] chan 1 note 47 vel 112
1: E0 00 40 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 0 MSB 64
2: E0 06 3B [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 6 MSB 59
3: E0 0C 36 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 12 MSB 54
4: E0 12 31 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 18 MSB 49
5: E0 18 2C [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 24 MSB 44
6: E0 1E 27 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 30 MSB 39
7: E0 24 22 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 36 MSB 34
8: E0 2A 1D [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 42 MSB 29
9: E0 30 18 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 48 MSB 24
10: E0 2A 1D [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 42 MSB 29
11: E0 24 22 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 36 MSB 34
12: E0 1E 27 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 30 MSB 39
13: E0 18 2C [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 24 MSB 44
14: E0 12 31 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 18 MSB 49
15: E0 0C 36 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 12 MSB 54
16: E0 06 3B [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 6 MSB 59
17: E0 00 40 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 0 MSB 64
18: E0 06 3B [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 6 MSB 59
19: E0 0C 36 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 12 MSB 54
20: E0 12 31 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 18 MSB 49
21: E0 18 2C [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 24 MSB 44
22: E0 1E 27 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 30 MSB 39
23: E0 24 22 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 36 MSB 34
24: E0 2A 1D [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 42 MSB 29
25: E0 30 18 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 48 MSB 24
26: E0 2A 1D [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 42 MSB 29
27: E0 24 22 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 36 MSB 34
28: E0 1E 27 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 30 MSB 39
29: E0 18 2C [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 24 MSB 44
30: E0 12 31 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 18 MSB 49
31: E0 0C 36 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 12 MSB 54
32: E0 06 3B [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 6 MSB 59
33: E0 00 40 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 0 MSB 64
34: E0 06 3B [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 6 MSB 59
35: E0 0C 36 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 12 MSB 54
36: E0 12 31 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 18 MSB 49
37: E0 18 2C [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 24 MSB 44
38: E0 1E 27 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 30 MSB 39
39: E0 24 22 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 36 MSB 34
40: E0 2A 1D [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 42 MSB 29
41: E0 30 18 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 48 MSB 24
42: E0 2A 1D [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 42 MSB 29
43: E0 24 22 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 36 MSB 34
44: E0 1E 27 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 30 MSB 39
45: E0 18 2C [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 24 MSB 44
46: E0 12 31 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 18 MSB 49
47: E0 0C 36 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 12 MSB 54
48: E0 06 3B [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 6 MSB 59
49: E0 00 40 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 0 MSB 64
50: E0 06 3B [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 6 MSB 59
51: E0 0C 36 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 12 MSB 54
52: E0 12 31 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 18 MSB 49
53: E0 18 2C [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 24 MSB 44
54: E0 1E 27 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 30 MSB 39
55: E0 24 22 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 36 MSB 34
56: E0 2A 1D [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 42 MSB 29
57: E0 30 18 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 48 MSB 24
58: E0 2A 1D [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 42 MSB 29
59: E0 24 22 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 36 MSB 34
60: E0 1E 27 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 30 MSB 39
61: E0 18 2C [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 24 MSB 44
62: E0 12 31 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 18 MSB 49
63: E0 0C 36 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 12 MSB 54
64: E0 06 3B [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 6 MSB 59
65: E0 00 40 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 0 MSB 64
66: 80 2F 00 [Note Off] chan 1 note 47

SQUARE:
A square curve does not include the intervening value between the target pitch wheel events. This means that there are less MIDI events flowing at a slower pace. Here are the MIDI events for the exact same trill with a square curve:
0: 90 2F 70 [Note On] chan 1 note 47 vel 112
1: E0 00 40 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 0 MSB 64
2: E0 30 18 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 48 MSB 24
3: E0 00 40 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 0 MSB 64
4: E0 30 18 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 48 MSB 24
5: E0 00 40 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 0 MSB 64
6: E0 30 18 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 48 MSB 24
7: E0 00 40 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 0 MSB 64
8: E0 30 18 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 48 MSB 24
9: E0 00 40 [Pitch Wheel] chan 1 LSB 0 MSB 64
10: 80 2F 00 [Note Off] chan 1 note 47

In this case, all of the MIDI events seem to be processed correctly by MODO Bass save for the fact that same '~33% of the time sustaining B note seems to be a few 10's of cents
sharp (to my ear anyways)' seems to occur.

Cheers.

[mod redacted please review the rules, specifically those with regard to moderation and discussion thereof, thank you]
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Re: MODO Bass keeps going out of tune??

Postby boogerfingerz » Sat Dec 18, 2021 6:24 pm

I opened a support ticket with IK on December 1st, it's now the 18th and I still haven't heard anything from them. I wonder what's up?
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Re: MODO Bass keeps going out of tune??

Postby DarkStar » Sat Dec 18, 2021 6:26 pm

Please check out the forum Guidelines post about escalating your Support Ticket.
----------------
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Re: MODO Bass keeps going out of tune??

Postby rMidi » Sat Dec 18, 2021 6:34 pm

Boogerfingerz:

I have also not received a response yet to my 'ticket'.
If you are going to escalate yours, you may want to reference my ticket when you do so as I have completely documented the issue for them (I included a video showing it happening and why in my ticket).

My ticket number: #2627702
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Re: MODO Bass keeps going out of tune??

Postby Peter_IK » Mon Dec 20, 2021 4:44 am

^^^
DarkStar wrote:Please check out the forum Guidelines post about escalating your Support Ticket.
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Re: MODO Bass keeps going out of tune??

Postby boogerfingerz » Mon Dec 20, 2021 11:48 pm

DarkStar wrote:Please check out the forum Guidelines post about escalating your Support Ticket.

Sorry, I wasn't aware of the rules. I've since gone about it the right way, and I'm now in contact with support. Hopefully, we can get the issue resolved. Thanks
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Re: MODO Bass keeps going out of tune??

Postby rMidi » Wed Dec 22, 2021 9:23 am

Boogerfingerz.

I believe I am making progress with Tech Support.
[mod redaction - please do not distribute software, even if from IK Support via this forum]

Cheers.
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