Arc 2 / Mastering Use & Gain Staging

[memi1]

Just got it, trying to figure out how to integrate it into my previous work flow.

So seems to me that the correction changes the gain structure (Highs / lows may becomes higher or lower). If it is to be used last in the chain as the manual states then it creates issues. I use Ozone (grouped mastering effects). If I put Arc last in the chain, applied to previously mastered tunes, I get clipping.

If I adjust the Arc Monitor knob to compensate (not even sure this is the correct approach, not sure this is feasible as it doesn't seem its a, if you will, maintained like the Limited output), then when I do my final compile (with Arc off) I have to re adjust my output levels all over again to get to where I want the mastered output level to be.

Furthermore, the room correction file does NOT save individually for each song where used. Therefore any change / adjustment in the gain structure is then applied to any song file using the ARC plugin and I am left with a moving target across every song it was ever applied to. Try to go back to previous final cut with that floating around

I don't see how this system works unless it does not change the gain structure OR (but a real pain in the butt) I can save each gain structure individually for each song.

Help... or time to return it?

Input appreciated
Thx
Mark

[Peter_IK]

This sounds like you should consult our tech support team to see what is happening and they will help you. They can be reached at http://www.ikmultimedia.com/support

[kleinholgi]

Two things to keep in mind:

1. Consider ARC as an improvement to your speaker - something like a new speaker cable or amplifier

It has nothing to do with the layout and setup of the mastering stage.

The best way in Cubase is, to put it into the control room section, so it is totally out of the way of the direct signal. But this is for convenience only. You should be able to get he same results when you put it in the master output. You only have to remember to switch off during tapeout. If you use the internal gain attenuator of Arc, the final volume setup should be the same as without it.

2. I totally agree with you regarding the distortion Arc does add to the signal, if not compensated for. We can correct for it via the knobs inside the Gui, but it is far from ideal. Usually with 32bit floating point resolution etc., we shouldn´t be confronted with a hard brickwall situation, where the sound gets nastily distorted at the 0dB level., but maybe there´s a technical reason for this.
I also agree with you, that this can be nasty, if you want to switch back and forth between Arc processed an unprocessed sound by deactivating the plug in, especially if you want to keep both at equal or "feeling like" equal sound pressure levels. The only way around is to use the trim poti in order to compensate for volume differences between wet & dry.

[memi1]

Point 1 - Obviously as you don't apply the corrected ARC sound to the compiled sound for distribution. This is clear in the sales pitch. Speaker cable or amplifier sound difference? Really? That subtle uh? I know what cable and amp choices do to the sound. Please, it's a frikin EQ for God sake. Quite a bit different impact, you should know.

I just outlined how it impacts the layout and setup of the mastering stage. IT CHANGES THE GAIN STRUCTURE OF THE FINAL PROCESSING SETUP PER YOUR INSTRUCTIONS (Assuming you're a IK Tech person)

Point 2 - I use Sonar. How I have it set up is what I hear through the monitors is what I compile. No separate outputs. No "control room section". Maybe Cubase operates differently. I do not know. Maybe this setup workaround should be documented in the sales pitch.

You say the final output level should be the same with ARC versus without. I am saying is it NOT. We can debate although I win cuz I know what I see and hear. Tech support says "How they usually do it is keep limiter off until the end" . That's your workflow, not necessarily mine. Doesn't make any sense as the limiter choice and setting is part of mastering, part of the final sound. THIS IS KNOWN TO ANY MASTERING ENGINEER

I never said it adds distortion, I said it change the gain high frequency to low frequency through its correction. That obviously impacts how the limiter responds (depending on its position in the chain) and how the resulting sound comes out. Input to output max level should be the same for this type of plugin.

You're correct I can use the gain attenuator of the ARC to address gain issues. You fail to acknowledge and address that it is universally saved for the correction file, not per song wherever the plug in is applied. Therefore gain settings on one song impact gain settings on ALL other songs where it is used. Gain setting should be savable for each song NOT only for each room correction file.

The idea is workable (for mastering) ... if you can save gain structure PER SONG. For mixing, it doesn't matter because the Mastering Engineer will deal with final gain structure - duh

I am very supportive of new products and willing accept "understood we are working on it, thanks for the input". To say I am just wrong in how I work is a tough pill to swallow given my experience in this field... although I am always learning ... so do tell how....?

Thx
Mark

[kleinholgi]

Hi Mark,

1. No I´m only customer like you. No relations to IK multimedia.

2. The speaker cable or amplifier was just meant as an example, not more. Take a hardware room tuning bass trap or a modified room construction as a better example if you like. The important point is,not to think of ARC as some EQ that´s part of the mastering chain itself during tapeout- I think many people make that mistake, therefore I mentioned it.

3. Regarding the distortion which I experience sometimes when listening over ARC:
You spoke of clipping.
I think we both hear the same thing , just use other words for it.

Do you use ARC before the limiter ? It´s not supposed to work like that. Therefore the example with the speaker. Arc has to sit absolutely last in chain, after everything else, like it would be part of the speaker or your listeningroom.

If you place it somewhere in between (e.g. before Master Limiter or other Finalizing VSTs), it makes sense that you get strange effects.
If you put it behind the final limiter or whatever is last in your process chain, you can of course work with Limiter On during mastering. I do it as well, no problem.

Maybe the advice with limiter Off was given for people, who give away their songs to an external mastering studio. They indeed prefer to get a more or less unprocessed signal, because usually they have the better equipment and experience for that.

But that´s not an Arc issue, just workflow preference. If we work with Limiter On or Off doesn´t change the way Arc is working.

What can happen is, that you have to be careful not to overload it, since everything behind 0dB is sounding terrible. The onyl way to do it, is to reduce Arcs input Gain and yes, that might not be saved individually.

Ask IK Multimedia for that, I´m not happy with that Gain Input/Output handling situation as well.
But don´t shoot me, I´m only the piano player.

[memi1]

No mistake on my part. In a sense, comparable to ARC, bass traps are a sort of room EQ aren't they. Same principle - get bad room build ups, nulls out of the way of your mix. ARC IS part of the chain, it is an effect put in line of the signal and no, I do understand it is not meant to be a part of the FINAL signal.. that would be like doing the final compiling by recording the room sound coming from your monitors playing the final mix.

On note 3, umm no. I do, as instructed, put the ARC at the end of the signal chain. Then setup a mastered mix with the limiter at the end, referenced to, in my case, -.03dbm. That's my ceiling target. Engage ARC and it no longer holds to -.03dbm. Its literally clips to 0.0 or above. So yes it does impact the intent of the limiter setup - maintain ceiling to < 0.0. I can't find anything in the manual on how to set unity gain to address this. So there's that and yes (NOT MIGHT) its a universal patch for gain staging, so your stuck.

Separately to your point, while I have not had enough time with it, it does seem to introduce a graininess distortion in the high mid. What was smooooth master becomes something less desirable. I'm just not experienced enough with it to pinpoint the source as of yet. Maybe simple difference of getting used to a different sound / feel of a piece of equipment.

I have not heard from IK on these issues. So smells like not ready for prime time - for mastering. Mixing whatever... the Mastering Engineer will fix it

[Peter_IK]

ARC is more than ready for prime time. If you have reported to support and have not heard back, please let me know your ticket number. If you haven't reported any of these things to support now would be the time to do so, as that is what they are there to do - they will happily assist you.

[Brainwasher]

The topic is old, but I asked myself how to use ARC 2 correctly as a plugin in my DAW, especially when mastering because you need to get close to 0 db.

I first tried to use the AU plugin outside my DAW, with Audio Hijack, which capture audio from Ableton Live, put it threw ARC II plugin and then to the sound card output. The issue is that it adds lot of delay, so you can't record or play midi correctly.

Then, I figured out ARC II plugin have a Volume knob (i'm not talking about trim), which is at -6db by default, and it makes sense :

You can plug ARC II after your limiter only if the input volume in it is LOUDER than the output, because in that case, you can reach the 0 db to your limiter without clipping. Deactivate ARCII for export and it will only change the perceived volume !

You need to use your limiter graph, and not your master one.

-6 db seems to be working perfectly, but you can go more if you like.

Also, you can put an other limiter behind ARCII for gear security when you are tweaking it, and deactivate it too for export.

I hope this will help someone !

[MauMaster]

Hi to everyone, the ideal mastering workflow is better if you can work with THREE hardware volume control: soundcard, audio monitor and a Volume controller (as Nanoptach of SMProaudio, for example).
The perceived loudness of the corrected ARC output is lower than the uncorreted one, but often clip (differnt frequency response).
Of course ARC plugin must the lost one in the Master out bus, after the limiter and other metering plugins, these you have to use as last plugins to judge correctly the right levels in the exporting phase with ARC bypassed.
So the right procedure is to calibrate the volume via a standard pink noise signal for measurement test and a SPL meter (C curve slow time), with audio monitor level at 0dB (if you have) without ARC, and external volume controller at 0 dB as well, then operate ARC measurements and correction at that level (different choice for different size of your room).
Finally retest with correction ARC ON e set again (fine tuning) the ARC volume.
The ARC Volume and Trim operates both for the output (verified with meter in pre and post), my tip is to use Volume knob for compensation and use Trim just momentary to perceive the same volume of the uncorrected output if you want.
After that you have the system calibrated and you can change as you want, for testing the song at different levels as usual, the listening loudness without loosing the calibration changing only the hardware external volume controller..
For example in my room arc volume is -5,2 dB as the correct compensation but sometime still clipped over 0dBFs, so -6dB is a good compromise.
Hope this can be useful, Regards